[Music]
Hello and welcome to Full Disclosure, a
podcast project cons. I'm only joking.
I'm on holiday. Um, which is why we're
dipping back into the archives. We've
been doing this for six years now. Did
you realize that? 2019, full disclosure,
launched. Gosh, we're getting old
together. And um of course some of the
conversations we've had with people from
the worlds of politics, entertainment,
literature and beyond um stick with you.
I mean for me they they all do in
various different ways, but some I think
merit repetition or merit revisiting. So
while I'm off sunnunning myself, I
thought that I'd let you revisit a
couple of my favorites. The first is
Miriam Margles. This is one of those
memorable and even by her standards,
joyously unpredictable interviews, one
of the most unpredictable and joyous, in
fact, that I've ever recorded. You you
you don't really need me to tell you
much about her. You know, she's an
award-winning actor, a memoirist, uh
voiceover artist. There's some
interesting stuff there. And um in her
own words, not a national treasure, but
a national trinket. Above all though,
she is someone who doesn't seem to even
acknowledge the capacity to self-edit.
And why should she? I mean, it's part of
what makes her so wonderful. And her her
story, her life story is absolutely
riveting. um including some um some
darker moments and we take in her time
at the Cambridge Foot Lights when she
wasn't overly enamored of all of the um
people who went on to be household names
that she performed with the chat shows,
the Dickens stuff, Hollywood, Harry
Potter, of course, it's all here. And
again, you will not be surprised to
learn nothing was off limits. If you
heard it the first time around, it's
worth another listen, trust me. And if
you haven't, well, you're in for
something really special.
podcast project conceived entirely to
allow me to spend more time than I'd
ever get on the radio with people that I
find fascinating. And Miriam Margles, at
this point in the series, I normally
say, and this week's guest fits squarely
into that category of being fascinating,
but in your case, I feel it might be
something of an understatement.
>> What you mean I I fit roundly into it?
>> You There must be a word beyond
fascinating. and and there's no earthly
way we're going to touch the sides of
your extraordinary life in the in the in
the in the mo in the minutes that are
available, but we shall try.
>> Thank you for having me on the program.
>> Well, thank you for coming. I'm
fascinated by how superhuman or
supernaturally secure you seem in in
your own skin. And I presume reading
your your book um this much is true.
Your your memoir, astonishingly
well-received memoir. Although that
wasn't always the case, it must have a
lot to do with how much love you were
enveloped with as a as a baby. And
>> I think it's everything. The love was
everything. The confidence because you
you start out in in a sense a level
playing field with everybody else, but I
had so much on my side. mommy and daddy,
the army,
you know, it was just I felt confident
and even though when I went to meet boys
and
>> was growing up and not very successful
at growing up, I I still knew who I was.
I knew who I was. I just didn't think
that anybody else would want me. There's
a solidity of of unconditional love that
not everybody gets to experience but
which I mean defines your early years
and and your early years define your
later years.
>> I was very very lucky.
>> Did you know that at the time? I mean
did you feel I mean because the thing
about childhood is it's the only one you
ever know, isn't it? You don't get to
compare your childhood to other people.
>> Well, that's that's the difficult thing.
You you don't think you're unlike anyone
else, but then you don't think you're
like anybody else. I think I knew that I
was going to find life interesting but
difficult.
>> Okay.
>> I because
>> we my parents spent a lot of time
explaining about being Jewish.
>> And that was a very important part of
growing up. I was different. I was the
other.
>> I didn't go to him practice.
>> And
that gets into you. So you you know that
you don't belong and I still feel in
some ways I don't belong but I've made a
little hole for myself that's my hole
and and it works
>> conscious of family history as well
which is I I mean as with a lot of um
Ashkanazi Jewish families it's an
incredibly checkered journey isn't it?
you know that people wanted you dead
because you were a Jew and you never
really get over that
>> and I'm hyper sensitive
>> to anti-semitism and I think the British
people don't like Jews on the whole we
we're just not liked.
>> You've got into trouble for saying that
and I know you were confused as to why.
I mean as if stating the reality of
anti-semitism is in any way
controversial. I it it's been difficult
because of the war because for a long
time after the war it wasn't supposed to
happen but it was there it was always
there.
>> When did you first encounter it
personally? Can you remember?
>> Well at school of course when they said
you killed Christ and I said no I
didn't.
>> It wasn't even there
>> and but people kids had been told that.
So they they voiced it. And then at um
afterwards um I remember in H Highleberg
when I was uh on tour with the
experimental theater group there there
was a kind of uneasy
a few remarks came came my way and I
thought oh oh okay that's what it is and
actually when I was little and we were
picnicking in someone's field and the
farmer said to my father why don't you
people go back where you came from
and we quickly packed up the rug and the
eggs and got in the car and they were
quite quiet.
>> He didn't mean he didn't mean Glasgow.
>> No, he didn't mean Glasgow
>> which is where your dad grew up and very
nearly didn't. There's an astonishing
story you tell about his papers arriving
for the for the first world war. I
noticed when I was reading up on you
that he was born in 1899 which I don't
know why res born in the same you know
century as as as Dickens did all his
great work who of course you've
>> that's mad isn't it running running out
of people whose parents were born in the
19th century.
>> Daddy was a Victorian.
>> Yes.
>> And he was very Victorian in his ways
>> and he was very Scottish too. you know,
he used to say, "I'll have a drum."
>> Uh when Sabbath came came out, you know,
after the stars came out, he said, "I'll
have a drum."
>> And uh yeah, he felt Scottish.
>> Well, I think of perhaps wrongly, I
think of a Scottish Victorian. I'm
thinking of obviously despite the
Jewishness, I'm thinking of a sort of
Presbyterian approach to life. And yet
in terms of emotional literacy and the
love that we've already talked about,
there was nothing Victorian at all about
your
>> Well, there was about daddy. Mommy
wasn't.
>> So mommy's the one who who enveloped
you.
>> Yes. Because she was
>> Mommy was the emotion,
>> right? Okay.
>> Daddy was frightened of emotion and
didn't didn't really show it very much.
But mommy was all emotion and she wanted
to be an actress and you couldn't if you
were a nice Jewish girl. So she threw
all her vicarious longings into me.
>> And you you were in Oxford when you were
born. The family had moved down. Your
dad was working your dad was working as
a doctor.
>> Yes. He he was a GP and he just upped
and opened a surgery first on the Cowi
road and then in um St. Clemens. And uh
he was just a single-handed practitioner
working hard and loving medicine. And he
was a good old school doctor, right? The
old school. Not now when they just look
at the computer. No. And tap out a
prescription.
>> That wasn't his way.
>> What about school? Let's let's start
with school. So home would have been, as
we've established, a very happy and warm
place. So was was there I mean, and your
mom was incredibly protective because
she hadn't she was frightened of giving
birth.
>> Yes. Well, they were married 11 years
before I was born.
>> Gosh.
>> So it was only the air raid that allowed
>> Congress.
Yes. And and along came you. Um
>> and I came along and in fact mommy tried
to have an abortion. Some people would
say that she did.
>> Be silly.
>> She wanted really wanted to have an
abortion but of course it was illegal
then. So she and she was a nice woman
and didn't do that
>> because she was terrified of the process
of pregnancy.
>> No no no coat hangers for mommy.
>> Oh dear. Um and so when you came along
this level of of protectiveness was off
the scale. How did it respond to school
when you had to go to school? You didn't
go away to school, but you
>> I was a day. They kept me at the high
school because uh I didn't get a
scholarship there. They paid because
they wanted me to stay
>> at a good school. Mommy was was really
um aspirant, you know. She was a social
climber. Yes.
>> And she wanted me to, as she always
said, be with the best people.
>> I'm never quite sure who they are.
>> No. Nor am I. My mom's the same. I got
sent away to public school for exactly
the same reason. And they weren't
necessarily the best people.
>> Exactly. But you didn't tell them that.
>> Of course you didn't.
>> But that's how I stayed at the high
school, which was a wonderful school,
Oxford High School for girls. All the
other girls were the daughters of Dons
for the most part.
>> So that's how I got friendly with the
Hodgekin family, which was Dorothy
Hodkin, Nobel Prize winner,
>> Thomas Hodgekin, communist, iconic
class. wonderful man and Elizabeth
Hodkin who is my great friend still. I
>> I mean it's an amazing place to go to
school or an amazing place to grow up at
any point in history but but for a but
for a woman at that point in history it
was perhaps particularly special.
>> Yes, I think it was. I mean I love the
Oxford of my youth. I'm not sure that I
like the Oxford now.
>> I understand that. Um, and I wanted to
go to Cambridge because I wanted to
escape in a way from the family. Um, the
family ti
I I'm just back up a bit because you
didn't get the scholarship. The amazing
thing about your book, I love people.
Well, I say that I love people because I
think I'm one of them, but the the the
more near the surface your childhood is,
the more I find it's easy to trust
someone. And your childhood is very near
your surface, isn't it? You're still
very very much in touch in touch with
your childhood. But
>> yes, I am that person.
>> Um
>> some people you find it impossible. I
could never imagine my dad as a child. I
just it just seemed to me to have always
been a grown-up. But some people you can
see the child within moments of them
>> sitting down.
>> I've never left that child. A naughty
school girl really. I mean that's
>> And I think I think you had a therapist
once who said that you were stuck at the
age of four, was it? And that she might
be able to get you to 12 if you if you
were lucky.
>> Yes. Margaret Branch. She said, "You're
like a you're like a a Jewish princess
stamping your yellow wellies in the
mud."
>> We're jumping all over the place. So,
let's carry on. And then I'll try and
impose some rough chronology. Because if
we've got this supernatural sense of
security, why on earth would you need to
see a therapist or want to see a
therapist?
>> Oh, well, that was because in later
life, I just went to pieces. I had an
affair with somebody having got a a a
wonderful stable relationship which
amazingly I still have
>> after 54 years. Um and I I I was seduced
by a very um a rather remarkable
American lady professor. I I'm I'm an
intellectual snob. You know,
>> I'll only um I haven't to say the word.
Um, I'll
>> You're allowed to do it as a podcast. I
know you keep getting trouble, but it's
fine. You do it on live breakfast
television and you don't do it on a
pre-recorded podcast with an editor in
the next room who can who can cut it all
out anyway. You can say whatever you
want.
>> I always I my explanation is that I will
only [\h__\h] someone with a a degree, you
know, with a
>> someone clever. It's not the piece of
paper, is it? It's clever. It's what's
beneath the bonnet of qualification is
what
>> between the ears is what counts, not
between the legs.
>> So, you were trying to work out why
you'd acted in a slightly
self-destructive fashion and and therapy
can often provide answers to those.
>> Well, she put me together and she put
Heather and me together and
>> your relationship with Heather survived,
which was the crucial and most important
thing
>> for me, the most important thing. Yes.
>> As we've already established in this
conversation, but as the book makes
absolutely clear, nothing is off limits
with you, is it? Absolutely not. It is
all out there.
>> Were you always like that? Were you like
that at school?
>> I was.
>> Gosh, that must have been challenging.
>> Like that.
>> Not for you, for everybody else.
>> I think it was. I don't know how to keep
I don't know how to button up. I just am
in incapable of of just stopping and
pulling myself up. I just don't do it.
>> Did you ever try? Well, I think I I have
tried, but I failed.
>> Is this because mommy thought everything
you did was absolutely wonderful? So,
you never had that kind of self what's
the word I'm looking for? That that that
kind of self-consciousness?
>> I don't think I can blame mommy for for
that.
>> It's not blame. It's not a negative.
It's a positive. I'm just trying to
unpick it a bit.
>> I I think it's my my decision is that I
that I feel stronger if I'm open,
>> right? If I close up, I feel vulnerable.
>> See, I think Steven Fry suggested that
that's because you want to get your
retaliation in first for fear of attack.
I don't know you. This is the first time
we've met and Steven Fry does know you.
But that didn't seem to me to be fair
reading the book given that this this
openness, this absolutely nothing is off
limits was established long before
adolescent insecurities might have
kicked in or or or or your role in the
world might have become confusing to
you. You've always been like this. I've
always been like this because I want a
reaction, right?
>> And it's such fun to see people being
shocked
>> or even horrified. I get a kick out of
it. And it that's very adolescent, but
it's still true.
>> But it's normally done when you're in
character. Most actors who enjoy that
thrill, you've described it, I think, in
some context, as the tightening of the
anus, that moment of of of excitement.
You're supposed to get it when you're in
character. You're not supposed to do it
when you're not in character and you
it's hard to see the line between the
two sometimes with you. I think
>> I I don't know how to respond to that. I
don't know, you know, because what you
what you're actually doing is is
slightly deconstructing me and I don't
know how to respond. Not in a nasty way,
not in a not in a in a deconstructionist
way, but but but just trying to explain
why I behave so badly. I honestly don't
know
>> what you're saying is I'm just me. Let's
not let's not overthink it. It is So,
when did you realize you were clever?
Cuz you mentioned you didn't you didn't
get the scholarship, which is
interesting.
>> I I'm not clever. I think I'm pretty
shrewd, but I I'm not a scholar. And
that's what I would love to have been. I
would love to I would love to have been
like Heather who who published a book in
this same year that I did but her book
won't get read by that many people but
it's about Indonesian trade and
politics.
>> It's a work of proper scholarship.
>> A proper scholarship and I've not done
that except my Dickens work. I think my
Dickens work is serious and good and
will stand the test of time. It
>> it I mean Renaissance woman is a bit of
a pat phrase isn't it? But people
perhaps don't realize they might know
you from one or two areas of your
career. They won't be aware of of all
the other areas as well as you as you've
just touched on.
>> Well, I hope not.
>> Did you We'll get on to that later. Did
you set out I mean, again, we're jumping
forward, but did you did you set out to
just inhale work to do as much as you
could or or or or was it just a case of
taking whatever jobs came along? I took
whatever came along.
>> You just happened to end up with this
amazing pallet of experience and
professional work.
>> Yes. I think it's hard for me to realize
that now I'm 81, which is old.
>> And I I can't quite
take in what I've done in my life. Where
has my life gone? What did I do with it?
And I I've only got a a a BA degree in
English literature. I would I would have
liked to have done more, learned more,
really worked harder intellectually, but
that wasn't the way it went.
>> Less living, more learning.
>> Yes, I'd love I would have loved that.
>> It's a contemplative perspective that
you
>> Yes, I think there is a slightly
melancholic
contemplative longing within me.
>> When did you realize you weren't a
scholar then? because Oxford High School
is a very um august institution and you
you walted into Cambridge. I I mean
>> well I didn't waltz into Cambridge. I I
I did get an exhibition to Cambridge
>> um which surprised me. Right.
>> Um but I think words thrill me and
always have
>> and that has been my salvation.
>> You've described your vocabulary. I
can't remember how you described it but
it is you don't over you know lots and
lots of words. You never overuse any of
them.
>> I love words.
>> I do too.
>> Words are the currency of thought.
>> And I enjoy discovering words and using
them in a different way. I love puns.
I'm great friends with Esther Ransen and
she's a great punster and we have fun
doing that. It it it's just
>> salty. It's tasty. They say there's a
there's a theory as well that rage
people with small vocabularies who can't
articulate are a lot more given to rage
and anger and stress because they can't
get their feelings out of their head and
so they sort of form of constipation
that that that that then explodes.
>> They never know what
>> I can believe that
>> I can as well. Makes sense. Um you
mentioned Esther. You've got a lot of
friends. I read 12,000 names or
thereabouts in your phone.
>> Yes. That's a bit boastful, isn't it?
>> I don't know. Well, names aren't
necessarily friends,
>> but a significant number of them will
be.
>> I can't let people go.
>> I guarantee that when we finished this,
I will want
>> to claim you.
>> Well, feel free.
>> I will want to know you.
>> Feel free.
>> And in fact, I wanted to know you before
I knew I was ever going to come on your
program. Thank you.
>> Because of the way that you care about
the same things that I care about.
>> I think so. I hope so. I take that as a
compliment.
>> I believe it. Um, so don't be surprised
if I get your email from someone.
>> All right, don't you don't need to get
it off me. Um, friends at school then
were you were you were pop I mean nasty
comments about killing Christ
notwithstanding. Were you a popular
class?
>> I was popular cuz I made people laugh
always
>> and that makes you
>> did you start at home? Did you start off
making mom and mom mom and dad laugh or
or or did you start making people laugh
at school?
>> I think I worried my parents. I don't
think I made them laugh but laterally
perhaps but um I certainly made people
at school laugh and teachers and I had
wonderful friends and I still have
>> still friends with them. That's really
rare. Quite a few people who sit in that
chair have no contact whatsoever with
anybody they went to school with
particularly actors actually for some
reason.
>> Well maybe they they want to divest
themselves of of people. I just want to
add people. I want like I I'm a stamp
collector. I want to lick them and put
them
>> I mean literally if we're going to get
into some of the other chapters in this
book. Um so you get to Cambridge I
people some people arrive at university
and find their tribe. You don't come
across like that. You don't come across
as someone who felt disconnected until
you got to university. Quite the
opposite in fact. You just sort of enter
into life in in Cambridge and and don't
enjoy all of it do you? Well, it a lot
of it was wonderful. And where I always
say that I became who I am,
>> right?
>> And I I loved it. I love my college,
Nunham College. I love my my tutors. In
fact, I I was in love with my my moral
tutor, Leslie Cook, who died a long time
ago. She knew I loved her. I used to
bring bags of fudge and knock at her
door at midnight if I saw her light was
on. and she was very nice. She'd invite
me in and I'd sit on the floor and we'd
talk about life. And I I did say to her,
you know, I love you.
>> And she just looked rather embarrassed
and said, "Yes, well, that's very nice."
Um,
>> did you fall in love with anyone else at
Cambridge?
>> No, no, no, I didn't. I had a boyfriend.
I, in fact, he's still my friend. The
lovely thing is that David, who who was
the chap, he was um the lighting man at
at the at the amateur dramatic club at
Cambridge, the ADC, uh reading
engineering, and he and Heather both
ended up in Amsterdam, and they bought a
house together, and he's still in my
life. Gosh, and I love him still. Not
groinily, but
>> of course emotionally heartily.
>> Heartily. Yes. Um, so we've had the
first glimpse of the stage then. Did you
not act at school? Did you do acting at
school?
>> Oh, I did act. Yes, I thought so. I've
seen some of the pictures. I should
mention the book's got an astonishing
collection of photographs in it as well,
hasn't it?
>> Oh, I I I love the photo.
>> Clearly, you do. And it keeps you in
again keeps you in touch with that child
and that that proper memories as if it
were yesterday. Some of those captions
in particular.
>> Well, my school has never left me.
>> No.
>> In fact, nothing.
>> Rare cuz it's in a good way. I mean,
some of us are haunted by our school
days. My therapy focused almost entirely
on my school days for the most awful of
reasons. Whereas with you, you've got
this sort of stayed with you for nice
reasons.
>> Well, it was a single sex school, which
I think is a karma situation.
>> It is for girls.
>> Not for boys.
>> Maybe not.
>> But definitely not. It's bloody awful
for boys,
>> I suppose. Well, men are still almost a
closed shop to me. I I don't really
know. I was I was just saying to to
Charlotte earlier that I I wonder what
men talk about
because girls have great conversations
>> about all sorts of things.
>> Yes. And about their inner lives and
their longings. I don't know if men have
longings that they talk about
>> that. I think we're getting better, but
we certainly wouldn't have done
>> 30 years ago. No, I mean not not back
then.
>> Darling, it's 60 years ago.
>> Yes. Gosh. I so you you did act at
school and did I acted at school were
there magic m I mean did you walk onto a
stage and think this is where I am meant
to be this is my
>> I knew I loved theater
>> I knew that being in front of an
audience was was being at home
>> why tell me what I mean what
>> because I felt I could control
the audience I've always felt that when
I stood on a stage I knew what to do and
they gave themselves to me the audience
audience is very generous. It they say
here we are and we're watching and it's
it's wonderful. It's it's a joy. It's
it's a meal.
>> And you could feel that even as a as a
as a young
>> Yes. I I didn't I didn't voice it in in
those terms, but I knew that I felt a
great peace when I went on stage. And I
was always nervous and I'm still more
nervous now than I used to be. But I
know when I'm there, I know what to do
and I know that they are looking at me
and it's good.
>> I like being looked at.
>> And and I suppose you bring something
similar to your sort of latter terms on
on chat shows and things when you have
the audience, you take the audience, you
take it away from people who are
sometimes better known than you are at
the beginning of the interview, but not
at the end of it. And you you you you
have the audience eating out of your
hand. You're exercising a similar style,
>> I suppose. So I I mean it's as if chat
shows were made for me.
>> I and I never thought about going on a
chat show. I mean it it wasn't anything
I really wanted to do. But it's fun and
and and I seem to have the knack of
getting across to people.
>> You do. And and what's lovely is that
you've got so much other stuff going on
as well. I always think the tragedy of
Kenneth Williams's life was that he
worked I mean he was brilliant on chat
shows but by the end that was the only
thing anyone was ever booking him to do
and I think it contributed to his his
decline whereas for you a chat show is a
little bit like a sort of waving out of
the car window as you're as you're off
on a fascinating journey anyway you're
doing something exciting anyway
>> and it's and it's interesting because on
chat shows you meet other people that
you in my case I I I hardly ever know
who they are. No, you don't you're not
shy of saying so
>> and it's fascinating. And that's how I I
met uh Rory Stewart
>> and I really like him.
>> He's special, isn't he?
>> I think he is the future.
>> I think that's what the Tory party
should, you know.
>> But you don't just meet people. I mean,
you you you
really want to know people when when
Yes, I do. You kind of
>> I want to know people in the street. I
mean, I've gone up to people sometimes
and said, "I like the look of you. Would
you would you mind having a chat? Should
we should we have a chat?"
>> And what do they do?
>> They have a chat.
>> And and sometime, very occasionally,
people say, "Well, I actually I'm a bit
busy this morning."
>> So, and rush off. So I actually to that
end Judy Dench I think revealed that
during because you live near her
daughter Finty during lockdown you you'd
be sitting on your doorstep starting
conversations with passers by to to
alleviate the monotony and the boredom
but also because you were really
interested presumably in what stories
these passers by might have to share. So
here's the weird thing Miriam that we
talk about the showoff gene sometimes on
this podcast or the look at me gene. You
clearly have it in spades.
>> In spades. Yes. But but at the same time
it's it's not to the exclusion of
fascination with other people. I mean
they don't often go hand in hand. This
genuine voracious appetite for other
people and and knowing them and
understanding them. But I suppose what
I'm saying is that the look at me gene
is often quite conceited, but yours
isn't at all.
>> I don't think it is. I I've I have
wondered about that because I'm capable
of conceit. But I'm also actually quite
humble um knowing what I have to offer
is not that considerable and people are
fascinating hearing people's stories,
hearing the the hurt that people go
through
>> and the experiences that others have. It
is fascinating
and that's that's compelling and and and
while I talk to people they are more
interesting than I am. I want to know
their story
>> to you. They are more interesting than
you are.
>> Genuinely so. And I think that's why my
documentaries have have been successful
>> because I I'm lucky enough to have
researchers who find the people. I don't
find them, but once they're found, I
know how to talk to them so that they
reveal themselves. And people revealing
themselves is the most thrilling thing
you can imagine. And you can't teach
that or learn it.
>> I don't know if you can, but
>> that's an innate fascination.
>> I think it has to be an innate longing,
a curiosity.
>> So, I I was going to ask you this later,
but you've mentioned the documentaries.
If what would you have been if you
hadn't been an actress? What what else
was on the agenda when you were at
Cambridge and you joined the footlights
and you started thinking, do you know
what? I could do this for a living. What
What else What were the other
contenders? My mother wanted me to be a
barristister and I did join up raise in
and at the dinners
>> and that's actually where I I met some
anti-semitism as well.
>> Um but that wasn't ever going to be for
me. I'm just not
>> It's a triple it's a trident often again
for people who've been on this series
that acting law journalism or politics
that's four prongs actually but you did
so you could I could have seen you as a
journalist or a writer.
>> I could have been a journalist. I think
I I thought I would have been a
probation officer because I I like
helping people and and doing good and I
love crims. I can't help being
fascinated by those beyond the law,
outside the law,
>> and by redemption or just literally by
criminality.
>> Well, by by criminality, I think I I
want to understand
why do you do that?
>> And remember, my great-grandfather was a
criminal.
>> Yes. Seven years in
>> in hard labor in in parker style of
white. And was that carried as a as a as
a stigma by the family or was that
>> it was never quite completely stable.
>> I didn't know anything about it. And I
still don't know whether my mother knew
>> really.
>> I I she never told me and I I never
spoke about it then because I didn't
find out till much later.
>> But it it was a a shameful thing in
those days. And I mean this is 1877
he was sent down.
>> It's incredible, isn't it?
>> It is. But I wondered if I've I've
always felt on the side of the underdog.
>> Simeon Sandman. Um, no.
>> Uh, Sigisman. No, Sigisman was my
grandfather. Simon Simon Sandman.
>> Sandman.
>> Um, back to Cambridge.
>> Joined the Foot Lights.
>> That wasn't a success.
>> Well, it was. I mean for one of a
professionally I mean in terms of
performances it was a success but
>> it got me into radio because uh John
Bridges who was a radio producer at the
BBC came down and saw me in Double Take
in 1962. When I left the following year
I wrote to him and asked him to get me
an audition if he could and he got me an
audition and I joined the BBC drama
repatory company in 1965
>> and that was the launch as it were.
>> That was the launch. So you I mean at
Cambridge you decided I'm going to have
a crack at this. I can do this for a
living. I this is this is me. This is
what I want to do or
>> Well, I knew I wanted to act
>> before even I mean and
>> not at school. I I thought I would be a
doctor at school because daddy was a
doctor.
>> And how did they respond when you came
because I mean it was it's not really
many parents' dreams particularly for a
daughter to come home and say I'm I'm
going on the stage Mrs.
Worththingington.
>> Well it was mommy's dream. She wanted me
because that's what she had wanted. And
she was gifted. She was in the finals of
the Golden Voice competition of 1936,
which was the Britain's Got Talent of
the Day.
>> Incredible, isn't it?
>> Um, Daddy was very disturbed. He he
>> he was a a sober, somber man, and he
didn't approve at all. And I I like
telling this that when I started in the
business, you know, he would say, "What
is your income?" And I would tell him
what my income was. He say, "Oh dear."
And but later later when I I got to make
money, he'd say, "And what is your
income now?" And I said, "Uh, whatever
it was." He said, "Oh, really?"
>> That's where it comes from then, cuz
people have commented on your
fascination with finances. Quite a
childlike glee or or or I mean, utterly
indiscreet. But talking about what you
earn and where you get money from, you
drop into conversation, how much you get
paid for appearing on the Graham Norton
show and just little and then big
paychecks like you got with Harry Potter
is very unenglish approach to money,
isn't it? I I suppose it is, but I I'm a
trade union member equity and it it's in
the workers's interests to have
information and so I've always talked
about my income with my colleagues
because they should know what what you
earn because it helps them to quantify
what they should get. Of
>> course. Yeah.
>> And I I think, you know, I I love money.
I think it's great. I just want everyone
to have it.
>> Yes. So, uh, I don't think it's
something that you shouldn't talk about.
That's very English. I mean, the things
that matter. Um, money, sex, religion,
and politics. And you're not supposed to
talk about any of those.
>> But you would be happy talking about
nothing else, wouldn't you? For forever
really. Absolutely. Of those four
subjects. And and I mean, again, it's
this curious dichotomy between being
famous for performing as other for
playing other people and yet having such
a say a huge personality. That sounds
like something dreadful of a of a but
but having such a
>> complete sense of self and sense of
what's important and really wanting to
dig into the weeds of existence.
>> I have a warm personality. I think I
mean when I look at you and when I look
at other people I don't frighten them
and I don't overawar them. I I I hope
that I cuddle them. My my look is a is
an embrace to say I'm here and you're
here and how lovely that is. And I think
that's why people are not not um don't
clam up when I'm around. They they want
to share their lives because I want to
hear it. I want to hear my I want to
hear your life.
>> Should be the other way around. I was
just thinking that
I would love to know what made you you,
>> you know, just as you want to know.
>> That's why I do this project. I mean,
it's exactly the same um appetite. Um
well, let's carry on trying to find out
what made what made you you. Um, so the
the briefly people were horrible to you
at Cambridge, including famous people.
>> only only the Foot Lights Boys.
Everybody else was adorable.
>> And some of these footlights boys went
on to be the most famous performers of
their generation. Um,
>> deservedly so. And and still are
horried.
>> So, you know, people are what they are.
They saw me as a pushy little yid.
>> You really think so?
>> Yes, I do. And also I was good
>> and they didn't like that.
>> No. How did you know you were good?
>> Because I got the laughs and I got the
notices.
>> That's how they knew you were good as
well. So you come out of Cambridge and
and radio and voice work um for a while
was the was the bread and butter.
>> I think it always will be and it always
has been right through my career. I've
always done radio plays, recorded books.
By the way, my my book is uh an Audible.
>> Doing it by doing it yourself. That's a
>> and people can buy it on
>> That's a selling point, isn't it?
>> It's actually number one at the moment.
I rather
>> Congratulations. I'm not surprised
though, frankly. So, I mean, including
some quite fruity jobs.
Well, only a couple of times I made um
an audio, not visual, audio porn tape
>> and uh it was called leaves sexy Sonia
leaves from my schoolgirl diary and it
was just an account of various moments
of tumes.
>> That I that I observed as a school girl.
>> And how would people have what would I
have done? bought an LP or a tape or
something. How was it?
>> Oh, cassette, I think.
>> Was it on cassette? You go to a special
shop somewhere, Ceil Court or somewhere
like that and
>> and Summers, I think, was amaz
which which gave an awful lot of
pubescent boys all manner of conflict
and and and and uh confusion.
>> It's delightful to think of it. I mean
it for me it was a a job and great fun
and uh I I did a lot of jolly good
commercials. Mannequin cigar.
>> Which was um very uh well me trying to
be a West Indian. Um but very soft like
that you know. Oh god.
>> Tobacco come from middle
middle leaf best make mannequin cigar
special.
>> She was down my spine. The the the the
work for actors for all actors divides
doesn't it between the job and the
livelihood and then the art and the
magic as it were. When did you start
getting both? when when I mean what cuz
some of the radio stuff you did was very
high.
>> Yes, I did some good radio work. I I
think actually it wasn't until I did my
Dickens Women.
>> Gosh, that that long.
>> It took a long time because I've always
been regarded as a a roly pololy
character actress.
>> And they are right. That is exactly what
I am. But I could have been more than
that if I'd had the chance. But I I
didn't I wish I'd done more Shakespeare.
I wish I'd done more classical stuff,
you know, but what I did I I I think I
did pretty well.
>> And um I'm grateful for those
opportunities.
>> When did ambition where does ambition
fit into this story, this life? I mean
ambition in the in the cold and and and
conventional sense of the word.
>> In the beginning, it was very hard to
get started,
>> right? And it was only ambition and
mommy saying, "You're good. Don't give
up. Just keep going."
>> That gave me confidence to go in for an
audition and and try and get an agent
and so on. But um nobody thinks that
they've had the career they should have
done.
>> Do you not? You I mean, so you sort of
think of the cannon is it? And you think
of I don't know Desdona or Ailia or
stuff like that. What?
>> Well, I would have liked to have done
more check of
>> and I think that's where I I could have
been quite good. But
>> you've done Becket. I mean, not as But
that was very much later. Only about
eight years ago.
>> So, when does that act start then? When
when does So, it's with with the Dickens
stuff.
>> Yes. I think after I did my Dickens
play, which
>> So, it's 89. 89.
>> It started in ' 86. Okay. 86. Sonia
Fraser and I took it down to Frank
Dunlop at the Edinburgh Festival and he
commissioned the
>> right. We we pitched it to him and after
that people thought, "Oh, she's quite
good actually because I I did 23
different characters
>> and I told the story of Dickens life
going in and out of the narrative into
and I was protein. I changed,
>> And I think
>> and that's magic in theater when people
transform in front of you. I always
remember the first night in Edinburgh
when the curtain dropped. Well, there
was no curtain. It was a medical theater
and the lights went out and there was
complete silence. And I had no idea if
it was a good silence or a or a bad one.
And then the cheering started and the
lights came up and that was
unforgettable,
>> of course, because it was not just I
mean it was everything of you. It was it
was the brain and the
>> Yes, it it was absolutely um a fulcrum
for all the things that I believed in
and wanted to do. I had managed to pull
it off in in in one piece through Sonia
directing me so brilliantly and writing
it with me. And that moment is one I
treasure.
>> Yes. and and remember fondly often
>> and it becomes a huge pivot then
professionally is I mean is that partly
partly because of how other people came
to see you differently but not everybody
would have seen that show but partly
because of how you came to see yourself
>> yes
>> a new gear of self-belief perhaps
>> yes I thought I was worth it
>> right and you hadn't previously
>> you've done a lot you you know you've
done an awful lot film and and radio
>> I had but it was always
cameos. Okay. It's funny. Now, you know,
I do something that's called cameo and
it's when celebrities
>> Do you do that anyway?
>> I do because I You get paid for it.
>> You do. I don't wish you happy birthday
and stuff.
>> Yes. You know, John Burko does it as
well. And I really admire him
>> because he's got that booming voice. I
suppose it's quite He's quite Well, what
would your daddy say? How much he woring
for that?
>> Yeah, he probably would.
>> He probably would. But I get a buzz out
of it. It's fun.
>> I'm sure your clients are delighted. you
get five star reviews coming out of your
ears.
>> I do. I'm glad to say.
>> So, so I like this pivotal point. So,
pri prior to that you'd done around the
same time actually you again it's it's
not a cameo it's more than a cameo but
you did Flora Finching in in Little
Dorret didn't you? But you
>> and uh I won the LA Critic Circle award
for that.
>> And that's what took me to America.
>> Right.
>> Having the confidence of an award
because lots of people go to America on
spec. Yes. But if you've got an award in
your pocket, you you you propel yourself
just that bit above above the hoy paloy.
>> But but as we just started talking
about, ambition isn't something that
that word doesn't seem to fit you. And
yet you wanted to do better work. Is
that what we're talking about here or?
>> Yes, I did want to do and I still want
to. I I'm still
>> I'm still hopeful. Um but I'm to some
extent satisfied. I think if you know if
I died tomorrow I would say well I'm
sorry I didn't do more Shakespeare but I
did all right.
>> Yeah except that you know
we're looking at doing the the the
Scorsesei doing the Baz Lurman doing the
Harry Potters doing the I mean an
astonishing
people I think would be surp and then
the stage stuff doing doing doing Wicked
people would be surprised to hear you
say that I think don't you?
Well, I mean, I can't speak for people
uh if they're surprised. I honestly
believe there isn't an actress alive who
doesn't feel that they should have had a
better career. Even Judy Dench probably
thinks there were things that she didn't
do that she would have liked to have
>> It's what gets you out of bed in the
morning, I suppose, isn't it? So, tell
me about arriving in Los Angeles,
arriving in America.
>> Well, that that was a a big a big piece
of fun. I mean I said to Manakim Galan
who was the um
that was the first time I went when I
when I went um from from the critic
circle. He he was the um he was the
producer of Little Dorit which is what I
won it for. Yes.
>> And um I said to him, I want you to pay
for my hotel in New York three nights. I
will pay everything else,
>> but I want three nights in the best
hotel in New York.
>> And he did do it. He did give me that. I
went over economy, of course.
>> Um, and Pat Hodgej advised me on my
wardrobe because she's such a good
friend and since the girls of Slender
means, uh, she's good on wardrobe. And
so I kitted myself out and I I got to
the Plaza Hotel. That's where I was put.
I got myself a publicist and she got me
on this on the equivalent of this
morning. I can't remember what it was
called. The morning show on on CBS with
Katie Kurrick.
>> That's right.
>> And she interviewed me and and Johnny
Carson happened to see it and he
thought, "Oh, she's she's quite
interesting." And so they flew me down
to LA and that's how I got an agent and
how I got Norman Leer and how I got oh
something like $250,000
a year just to be there.
>> Incredible.
>> It was amazing.
>> What are you doing inside at this point?
Are you are you are you is it like being
in a safari park or is it like being
>> I was laughing.
>> Yes, that's what I mean. It is just
hilarious.
Yes, I was very lucky and I met lots of
lovely people and made lots of friends
and I lived in Santa Monica on Ocean
Avenue and it was a very luxy time of my
life.
>> And then I mean you then there's some
massive films a few years later as well,
isn't there? You do the Age of Innocence
most obviously perhaps.
>> That was a wonderful experience.
>> It got you a BAFTA. Should probably have
got you an Oscar, shouldn't it? Well, I
think I should have been nominated, but
uh that little twit Winona Ryder, she
managed to oust it from me. I'm not fond
of her.
>> You're not. Why? Why do you do that, do
you think? Well, because you I mean
there's a long list of people that
you've gone on the record as you don't
have to. It doesn't
>> You just feel the need.
>> No, I mean I say whom I love as well.
Don't
>> That's very true. Don't I I don't just
hate people and I don't hate her, but
she got in my way.
>> And in a in a very unfair way because
she wrote
>> to every single member of the Hollywood
Press Association.
>> Is that right?
>> And and lobbyed.
>> Lobbyed. She lobbied. But people do that
in Hollywood.
>> Didn't know that
>> they do that. I wasn't going to do that,
but she did it and she got the
nomination. And then I think she got
>> Did she get the Oscar? I think she might
have done. And Romeo and Juliet, you've
also had slightly unkind things to say
about Leonardo.
>> No, not unkind.
>> Well, no. Okay, sorry. Well, he would
think they were unkind.
>> Oh, well, I hope he wouldn't.
>> No,
>> look, he was smelly. It's not But he's
not smelly now.
>> Are you sure? He might be.
>> I am sure. I met
>> in that era. He looked a bit smelly.
>> Well, he was. He just didn't bother to
wash.
>> And when you're in Mexico, it's hot. No.
So, you know,
>> did when did you start getting
recognized in the street then by by if
forgive the term by normal people as
opposed to by theatrical types or or
>> I think it was after Harry Potter
probably.
>> Was it that was it really that not after
Romeo and Juliet even? And you
>> No, I don't think it was after Romeo and
Juliet,
>> but after Harry Potter.
>> What was that like?
>> It's lovely.
>> I love it. I love it when people come up
to me and it's just magical. I mean,
today when I was having lunch in Great
Portland Street, I was sitting outside
and lots of people came up to me and I
just love it.
>> Ask for photographs. Yes. Professor
Sprout.
>> So, that's another pivot then. So, we've
got we've got the Dickens stuff. So
that's so act one up until of the
career, act one up until the Dickens
show, act two up until Harry Potter, and
then act three when you have this
>> lovely pick and mix career really where
people ring you up and say, "Do you want
to come and do the real Marry Gold Hotel
with some lovely people and some right
asses?" Um, do you want to do do you
want to make a documentary? Do you want
to work with Alan [\h__\h] who you must
have loved many years, I imagine.
>> I've known him a long time.
He's been here and and I can see why
you're so close. There's a
>> Well, he's very open and honest, too.
>> I I think Graeme Norton's had a lot to
do with it, I have to say, because I was
on a a program with him, his program,
and I had a very successful time
>> with Will I Am.
>> Yes, I know. I saw
>> and that seemed to people seem to relish
it. And then I got asked back and so I I
get onto these chat shows and it's
lovely and I meet people.
>> There's a chicken and egg thing going on
there. Without Professor Sprout, you
probably wouldn't have been famous
enough to get onto the chat show.
>> Oh, absolutely.
>> And then and then of course the chat
show personality
develops its own momentum and and and
and draws new offers and new things to
do.
>> Do you say no? Do you say no to a lot
now? Do you say
>> Oh, yes, I do.
>> When did you start saying no to a lot of
stuff? Post Potter.
>> Yes, probably post Potter. Yes, there
are some things I I
>> So, how do you choose then? How do you
decide what
>> Well, I talked to Lindy King, my agent
at United Agents, and uh Olivia Hman and
Gabriella Cap. I mean, there's so many
people in the agency, I forget who they
are sometimes. But yes, I discuss it.
But some things I I don't really want to
do. I won't do quiz shows and I won't do
>> um
>> trivial things. I don't want to I don't
want to dwindle into triviality.
>> We've skipped over so much and and some
of it still voice work like um Mrs.
Plyiver in in Legend of the Guardians.
Um but also doing the the ants in James
and the Giant Peach with giant alumly. I
I mean
>> that was fun.
>> Yes, you could tell that was fun. I
mean, how could it not be fun? But the
so the the criteria through which you
choose the work you want to do, we'll
leave out the the trivial stuff and the
quiz shows, but if you've got three or
four decent parts, all of which have a
decent call upon your time and
attention, how then do you decide which
one?
>> Well, it's it's about the script,
>> um the people in it, and the location.
I'll I'll I'll do substandard work if I
can travel.
>> Okay. Is that why you did the the real
Marold show? For the travel? I mean it.
>> Oh, I did it for the travel. Yes. Cuz I
didn't know who the other people were
going to be.
>> Did you know who they were when you were
told who they were?
>> I wasn't told really. I I just sort of
we turned up.
>> Work it out. That's why it's quite good
telly really, isn't it? Because you feel
like an eavesdropper a lot of the
>> time. Well, I didn't know that that um
Bobby George was going to become an
important friend because I'd never heard
of him.
>> He's a lovely man. It's a lovely
relationship that develops in that. He
wears his heart on his sleeve. Well, you
can't see it cuz all the tattoos, but he
would if you could wear his art on his
>> He's a really special man.
>> Yeah, that comes across. And that's
again you collecting people, isn't it?
And and being open to the relationship.
>> Well, you you couldn't not fall in love
with with Bobby. I think everybody did.
Just it was it was a wonderful
experience that and I traveled uh and
and among the people that I traveled
with was Stanley Johnson because we went
to St. Petersburg
>> who you didn't warm to quite as much.
>> Not at all. No, no. The apple hasn't
fallen far from the tree there, I don't
think, has it? Could you have done
politics? Very political. I mean, and
and we've again we've glossed over the
experimental theater that you would that
be with Joan Littlewood or or or
>> No, I I I wasn't sort of functioning at
that time when she was,
>> but very much in that tradition.
>> I've done I did gay sweatshop. Yes, of
course.
>> But um
>> no, I I should have done more
experimental theater actually. That was
a a gap. I wish I'd done more with
Theatra D Complicit because they were
wonderful. That was a great company.
Simon McBurnernney. Yes.
>> Who directed me in in the Beckett.
>> That was a great experience.
>> Well, that that is I mean I mentioned
that earlier. I hadn't realized it was
so recent. That's 2009, isn't it?
Endgame at the Duchess Theater.
>> Yes, correct.
>> So, again, something that is is is born
of your new found celebrity in a way and
that someone has calculated you will
sell West End tickets even to something
quite I mean Beckett can be quite
impenetrable.
>> I don't know if they thought about
whether I'd sell it because they hadn't
Mark Ryland.
>> They didn't need anybody else.
>> He's he's quite
>> You've worked with everyone. Yes, I
worked I mean literally every Is there
anyone on your list if you had a list if
you had a bingo sheet of like the
biggest names or the best names in the
business? Not the big is there anyone
you haven't actually worked? I didn't
work with Ralph Richardson or or John
Gilgood and I admired them both so much
and I would love to have worked with
them but I worked with many other great
people.
>> So if I met you at any other point in
your life and I'd said let's say what
what what are your ambitions? Keep
coming back to the ambition
but what would you have said at one
point I just want to make a living
right?
>> Yeah. just want to earn a crust and then
>> and then
>> and then I want to be at the RSC and the
national and I never have been.
>> Why not?
>> I think I wasn't considered good enough
and then when I was considered good
enough I was never available.
>> Okay. So circumstance as much as
>> Yes. circumstance.
>> It's a funny one that isn't it?
>> Yes. I I'm I'm sad but I did work with
Peter Hall several times and that was a
great joy. He was a wonderful director
and he I remember when I auditioned for
him for Oreus Descent, he said, "Why
haven't I met you before?"
And I thought because of these soding
casting directors
>> getting through that getting through
those those gates, the gatekeepers and
and and big musicals as well. I mean,
it's it's
>> I know. Well, that's ridiculous. I mean,
I can't sing. I look as if I can sing,
but I can't. And it's it is absurd that
I started with Fiddler on the Roof and I
and I did Canterbury Tales and and I did
Wicked
>> on Broadway as well.
>> On Broadway.
>> What was that like? I mean, that's
massive.
>> That was thrilling.
>> Again, you were ticking all these boxes.
If you'd if if if the Cambridge Flights,
the pe the the the the young woman being
bullied a bit or a lot at Cambridge Foot
Lights, if you'd handed her this list
now, albeit that I understand what you
say about all actresses thinking that
they would have liked to do more and and
thinking about the path not taken. If
I'd handed young Miriam a list now, this
this thing I've got in front of me,
which has got most of your work on it,
but probably not all of it, what would
she have said?
>> Blimey.
>> She wouldn't have believed you, would
she?
No, she wouldn't. It's been a a
rollicking ride and thrilling and I'm
very grateful. And it's not over yet.
>> No. Well, we just get on to that now
because we're nearly out of time. We
haven't mentioned Black Adder. We
haven't mentioned all the sort of TV um
turns and and and comedy.
>> Well, I should mention the girls of
Slender Means because believe it or not,
every so often we have a reunion. Do you
really? And we're having one at the end
of this month. You don't do the
photograph again, do you?
>> Not the not the nudie bit, but Moira
Armstrong is still alive. She's 92.
>> And Pat Hodgej and Jane Cussins and um
um Rosalyn Shanks.
And who else? Judith Paris is still
there. And I've asked Jack Sheepard to
join us
>> because he's um he was in it too. done
quite a bit with him. You did a big
stage thing with him as well, didn't
you? Didn't you do the Nasty Wand? The
Really?
>> That was a horror.
>> The White Devil at the Old Vic.
>> That's dark, right?
>> That was a low point in my life.
>> Because you didn't get on with one of
your other co-stars or because things
were bad off stage.
>> It was a shocking production. I mean,
the thing is that Mike Lindseay Hog, who
directed it, is a darling. He's an
adorable man. He hadn't got a clue what
to do with the White Devil. It's a
difficult play.
>> Yeah. and Glenda Jackson was in charge
and you know she's she's a bit of a
primadonna. She knows what she wants and
she sets out to get it and she was
terrible in it and so was I and so was
everybody else.
>> But
>> do you know on the do you know in
rehearsal or do you not know like you
said about the Dickens show and it goes
silent at the end and you must have an
inkling that this is pretty good or
pretty special but you wouldn't you
don't know for sure until the house
erupts. Do you know when you're working
on a stinker, do you know?
>> I knew it wasn't bad. I knew it could be
wonderful,
>> but The White Devil was was shite. It
really And do you know that from pretty
early on?
>> I think we did.
>> You're contractually obliged to see it
through to the end, but you know, it's
not hiding to nothing. It's a funny old
business, isn't it? Really?
>> Well, it it it is. And it and it was
hard and there was wonderful people in
it.
>> Yes, clearly.
>> Patrick McGee.
>> No, on paper it should have been a smash
hit, shouldn't it? Jack, Jonathan Price,
>> I mean, James Villers, I adored him, but
he was terrible. I mean, we were all
shocking.
>> Nightmare.
>> Not many actors would say that even now,
would they? I mean, would any of them,
you think? I don't think Glenda Jackson
would, would she?
>> She I was I was rubbish. I was
>> I know she and I she I called her a cow
and she called me an amateur and I think
she won.
Oh dear. So if we said what what else
then? I mean what what I mean what else?
I mean there's more, isn't there? Like
you say, you're not not done yet. Is I
mean do you did you just actually wait
to see what comes through the letter
box, have a look at it, decide whether
or not you want to do it or or do you,
>> as you did with the Dickens show, you're
not going to make your own destiny
anymore, are you?
No, I'm I'm going to go out around
Australia
um talking about my life and doing bits
of Dickens. I can't let him go. I I
won't let him go because I know that's
where my best work is in in those
moments of Dickens. But I hope I'll get
some film work that I can show some
>> something different, something
>> light and maybe menacing. I'd like to be
menacing.
>> I I don't want you to be menacing.
>> Don't you?
>> No, I don't.
>> All right, then. I won't.
>> And that's it. I mean, this there's this
lovely sort of autumn of of your career
when you're a national treasure. Whether
you're comfortable with that
description,
>> national trinket, I've been called. I
think that's rather wittier.
>> A national trinket. You are the scourge
of producers. You probably know this as
we alluded to earlier because everyone I
mentioned to that I was interviewing you
today said, "Oh, be careful." I said,
"Don't worry, it's pre-recorded. She
won't she can't she can't get me into
any trouble by by
>> I wonder why they say that."
>> Because you keep swearing in the most
unswery of of of studio environments.
That's all. It's not
>> Yes, my language is very bad.
>> Been very good today. I'm disappointed
actually. I feel a bit let down. Oh
gosh. I've done something.
>> Well, I want to show the best of myself,
not the worst of I'm very I'm very
grateful to you and you you revel
although you didn't need it. You revel
in the affection that you've inspired in
generations of of film goers. But you
didn't need it like a lot of actors do.
>> I don't know if I needed it or not, but
I'm bloody glad I've got it.
>> And so are we. Mary Margos, thank you so
much.
>> Thank you, James.
with